Comments on: Memories of Lúcia Palmares (or: Life Cycle of a Stereotype)

By: Joaninha

Joaninha — Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:38:41 +0000

Cenoura…that’s a pretty bad comment too, although not as outrageous as Nô’s (I don’t know, should someone who thinks like that still be respected as a capoeira mestre, if they have such a perspective that thinks capoeira shouldn’t include women when even the original capoeira mestres recognized that inclusion and diversity is one of the things capoeira’s actually all about?). Also, they’re assuming all the mestres are hetero… XD

Hey Soneca,

Yes, you’re right that that’s exactly what this thingamajiggy here is for, hehe, so even if it is a nearly unspeakably horrific thought I’m glad you decided to put it out there. Actually, I know there are lots of people who think some women get promoted because they’re dating a teacher or mestre or whatever, but then again that’s still completely different from mestres treating women in capoeira as just something they have to “deal with” for the sake of appearances… Where can we even go with this, though? We can hardly confirm whether it’s true or not, and if so how would we change it? Now I feel kind of like we’re on the brink of uncovering some deep, major, devastating conspiracy, but that’s probably getting way ahead of ourselves here!

Now I’m wondering though, with your reminder of Lucia’s memories, if anyone asked Nô to elaborate at the time? Did the comment come out of nowhere, or had he had some recent experience that would’ve lead to saying something like that? What happened right after the women in the class reacted? Did he try to explain himself at all? Was this by way of passing in conversation, or publicly stated in a lecture/talk to the class? Also, how did the guys in the class react (or was there any reaction from them?)?

By: Soneca

Soneca — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:40:10 +0000

When the comment was made there was a sharp reaction from some of the women in the class, very few actually. I think most ignored the comment (ignorance is bliss)… one of the other female students looked into the history of women in Capoeira- her comment in a personal conversation was, “What were the women doing back in the day? Samba-ing while the men played Capoeira?” It was a very sharp comment from someone we look up to and respect, which is why for me personally it’s interesting to read M. Lucia’s recollection on the fact that there were women training in the academy that he was presiding over.

As per passing along or graduating women along without them necessarily deserving a higher cord, I’ve never actually said that out loud or even thought about writing it on a public forum. But being that this is what this thingy-magigy is here for, why not? I feel like I’m crossing over into uncharted territory and am apprehensive about having this conversation as I agree Joaninha, it truly questions the integrity of Capoeira, or the Capoeira taught nowadays. Yikes! =X

By: cenoura

cenoura — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:29:04 +0000

Soneca-I second the whoa? what the heck? I mean, I’ve heard comments from one of m Nôs students making fun of groups bringing in a lot of mestres to an event to the tune of “do they have enough women to give them for the night?”(not sure if those are the exact words, but bloody close, and the intent is exactly right) but that’s just horrible. I have no words. I’ve wondered about your second issue, but I’m pretty sure the contramestre and teachers, at least in our group, try to even some of that out.

By: Joaninha

Joaninha — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:23:30 +0000

Yeah, Cenoura basically said what I was trying to get across. I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen someone impressed in that way by women’s sexuality before! I suppose it also depends on context though…as does most things!

Soneca–WHOA, what?! Frick, I don’t even know how I’d react if someone in my group said that, let alone the person who controls the whole group (and thus whose views would control it as well). How could he say that??? Especially with women IN the class?!! Why didn’t he just tell all you guys to quit then and there? He may as well have. Holy crap.

Even if he’s aggravated at those women, that is so emphatically no excuse, there’s not even a rational connection between some women joining cap. for the wrong reasons and women “not having a place” in capoeira at all. You don’t hear yoga teachers saying guys have no place in yoga (since there are probably some guys out there who just join yoga classes to stare at girls in their skintight TNA, lululemon, etc.).

And omg, that would be HORRIBLE…I never even thought of that before!! Thanks Soneca, I think we just hit a depressingly new low theories-wise…XD But I can’t believe that…because that would be destroying the integrity of capoeira itself, not just the women and the mestre/mestra…wow…

By: Soneca

Soneca — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:26:29 +0000

M. Nô actually said one day in class, and even though I love him to death this made me really sad, he said that women have no place in Capoeira…. he didn’t elaborate but would he say this out of aggravation at the stereotype that women come into academies to have “Capoeira boyfriends”? Why would he say this if he graduated a mestra? It kind of brings a bigger question to my mind- does a Mestre just pass his female students along without actually thinking they deserve a higher cord? Would he do this to make them feel better, or just keep them around? Do Mestre’s see their female students as females in Capoeira or as Capoeiristas period?
Hmmmm…..

By: cenoura

cenoura — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:24:10 +0000

mree, I have to disagree that it works like that at all. I think the general tone behind that stereotype implies desperation, and is negative. women may be told to be reluctantly sexual beings, but the stereotype comes more as “why would you have to join a group/do x” to get dudes. Women can get laid whenever they want” feminine wiles b.s. I never hear praise for women “eschewing gender roles” for something like that, only slut-shaming. so, no, I don’t dig.

By: Joaninha

Joaninha — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:59:35 +0000

Hey Mree,

Yeah, I don’t really like that either, and I was surprised the first time I heard that that sort of thing happens! About the stereotypes too, it actually goes both ways…some people might see it as sexual liberation for women, but I think a lot of people would still apply the double standard and see those women as cheap/easy/loose/etc. The idea of women being reluctantly sexual is based on the age-old narrative that women are morally superior to men, and the narrative that sex is bad or immoral, which is why people see forthrightly sexual women as somehow morally fallen.

By: Joaninha

Joaninha — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:44:06 +0000

That’s so true Brotheromi…because it does sound fair to say something like “In my experience, all ____ are/do ____”, since maybe that’s true in that person’s case, but what they and probably the people they say that to forget is that it’s only in _their_ experience, and even assuming they’ve had lots of experience, they’re still only ONE person!

Alright, I’ll be looking forward to reading what you write And just so you know, that last comment made my day!! =)

By: Joaninha

Joaninha — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:41:47 +0000

Hey Cenoura, sorry I missed you there! We must have been posting at the same time But I agree, I don’t think you can ever really be right stereotyping either…by definition!

By: mree

mree — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:09:07 +0000

I find the “women join capoeira to do the dudes” thing kind of interesting because while we’re dealing with stereotypes, one we can think of is women as reluctantly sexual beings.

It’s a “well-known fact” (using quotes for the stereotypes) that mean will do just about anything to advance sexually with women, including joining groups he has no interest in to have easy access to women or to impress the women with his (false) interest in THEIR interest. But in a double standard, women who would join a group with similar intentions would be seen as an oddity, or even commended for their “liberation” and “eschewing rigid roles set for women in the realm of sexuality”.

Ya dig?

I’ll admit, the boys are generally built quite nicely, thanks to capoeira, so I don’t mind one goshdarned bit watching them play and enjoying the beauty of their bodies. But to join a group just to get laid…wha?…really? I don’t like that at all.